Whose IPR is it anyway? - A Romantic Realist

Whose IPR is it anyway?

Raju Narisetti - Saturday, October 18, 2008 11:49 AM
If it weren't such an egregious violation of the Indian Copyright Act of 1957, there would be delicious irony in the fact that India's National Knowledge Commission, a high-level advisory body to the Prime Minister of India created with the objective of transforming India into a knowledge society, including reforming the country's Intellectual Property Rights system,” and an activist environmental group prone to pointing fingers at misdeeds of others were the ones ripping of Mint content.

It all began with a colleague stumbling upon a rather familiar looking article at  www.indiaenvironmentalportal.org.in, one of a series of web portals set up by the Knowledge Commission and aimed at becoming “a decisive tool in the popular movements in support of the right to information, decentralization, transparency, accountability and people’s participation.”

This particular one is outsourced and managed entirely by Center for Science and Environment, the New Delhi-based activist public interest organization run by Sunita Narain and, perhaps, most famous perhaps for its populist battles over contaminated Coke and Pepsi in India. (Listen to that saga here)

Turned out that the article was actually a complete reproduction of Mint National Science Writer Seema Singh’s 10 September piece headlined "India’s low-cost patient care earns plaudits in US Study.” A closer look at the CSE-run portal then showed that it has been regularly copying/reproducing a large number of articles published in Mint without ever bothering to have sought permission from HT Media Ltd, which owns all of Mint content, for permission to use that content.

I don’t know about you, but I have never believed in giving away content for free. And, especially in India, where content is already being sold for next to nothing. Readers of this blog would already be familiar with the Romantic Realist’s pet peeve of how Indian newspapers, which typically cost Rs8 in just ink and paper costs for 24, all-color pages and not counting any content generating costs, are typically sold for Rs3 or less. Sure my job as editor isn’t to make money but to spend it, but we all know why money matters.

What is troubling to me is the attitude of CSE, which presumably gets a fair amount of money to manage this portal, to intellectual property rights. In the terms and disclosures portion of the portal, CSE acknowledges what it is doing and warns subsequent users of the portal in this way:

The India Environment Portal also makes available content produced, owned or controlled by other organizations or institutions, and which may be protected under various national and international copyright regimes by the providers of the content. Users shall abide by the relevant copyright notices, information, or restrictions contained in any Content accessed through the Service (including, but not limited to news articles, feature articles, opinion pieces, book abstracts, e-documents, photographs, images, illustrations, audio and video clips, also known as "Content").

But, apparently, when it comes to CSE’s own behavior in illegally copying other people’s content on to the portal, copyright protections don’t seem to matter. And this is an organization whose executive board includes B.G. Verghese, former editor of Hindustan Times and Indian Express, as well as a member of the Press Council of India whose duties include protecting the interests of Indian newspaper industry.

That all this is being done for the government’s Knowledge Commission in the interests of “comprehensive public access to information” doesn’t make the theft of Mint’s IPR any less of a crime. To me, this isn’t about ideology. It is mostly about Mint’s ability to fund its content generation efforts (salaries of reporters, editors.) Let me explain where I am coming from.

All of Mint’s content is provided for free on our website livemint.com. The idea behind a free website is that it will then attract a lot more eyeballs than perhaps a paid site. A lot more eyeballs then allow those at Mint responsible for paying for all this content generation—aka the advertising department—to attract more paying advertisers to the site. But, if HT Media is stuck with just paying for content while the content is stolen by freeloaders who get the eyeballs to their site, it prevents a media organization from generating revenue (and profits), which, in turn, hurts an editor’s ability to keep asking for ever more money to expand my reporting and editing efforts.  

I am also quite aware that journalists and media houses are often accused of copying, especially from the internet. The accusations can often be true as well, as was clear from this article that ran on the front page of Mint recently about how Indian newspapers and magazines “steal” images off web sites. (Read article here).

And I am sure there could be people out there getting a bit bent out of shape by now about the fact that the government’s purpose in putting myriad pieces of information on one portal is noble, even if its means aren’t. But that is why we have laws that govern our behavior and here is what the Copyright Act of 1957 means in this particular context:

No special protection is granted to the Government, if the act (stealing IPR) complained of does not come within the purview of section 52 of the Copyright Act. In view of the flagrant reproduction of numerous articles of Mint, no provision under section 52 of the Act, dealing with fair use, can come to the government’s rescue and, therefore, the reproduction of the Mint’s articles amount to infringement of copyright. Under section 52 of the Act, no exemption is provided if an article is reproduced for the purpose of imparting/sharing knowledge with the public. Additionally, it is the exclusive right of the copyright owner (HT Media) to communicate its work to the public.

Mint routinely gets requests from other sites and publications seeking permission to use an article or two that staffers have published. With some exceptions, usually when such requests come from for-profit organizations, we are more than happy to grant one-off use of such Mint content. If, as claimed CSE and the Knowledge Commission's desire is to provide access to related information in one place, why can't they simply give links on the portal to other free sites instead of stealing content? Or if they want to legitimately get Mint content, then seek so-called syndication rights.

When government bodies and self-appointed guardians of right and wrong behavior in our society openly break the law, there ought to be consequences. Saying the content was identified as a Mint story doesn't cut it. Nor does a "sorry we will take your content out now that you have complained."  

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From Tarun Pall

October 18, 2008 3:02 PM
I would suggest a more subtle form of revenge, if the CSE does not respond in a favourable manner. I want to know why nobody asks the CSE why it went specifically for Coke and Pepsi. If it is really concerned about the Indian citizen's well being, what about the fact that water board, and utilities across the country provide you with contaminated water, that you pay for. Why is the CSE not up in arms about the pesticides residue and god knows what else is found in Indian Tap Water? Last time I checked, Water sustains life, and Coke is optional. Maybe Mint could start a new campaign...?

From Syamant

October 18, 2008 5:20 PM
I recently worked on creating some sort of tracking mechanism for restricted content ie someone else's IPR being misused on a third party site. I put down my thoughts from the perspective of a community site owner and is available here... http://www.customerexperience.in/2008/07/29/what-is-restricted-content/ These are just some of the issues and there are many more ... However, The challenge for the IPR holder is also getting to know that their content has been used inappropriately. A combination of automated tools, alerts and human intervention is required to manage the IPR. You might perhaps have already considered a service such as copyscape.com.

From Mili

October 18, 2008 10:54 PM
The link you mentioned about how media steals thigns from internet does not work : http://blogs.livemint.com/controlpanel/blogs/www.livemint.com/2008/10/10005415/Web-pictures-tempt-media-to-ov.html Can you please look at it.

From Raju Narisetti

October 19, 2008 9:05 AM

Mili--sorry about that. try it now. seems to be working. raju

From Lison

October 19, 2008 9:16 AM
They seem to taking Mint content off their site. My 15 July story on Asbestos used to come up in search earlier. Now its not. That's a step forward, even if its after the cease-and-desist from Mint. Well begun, half done I guess! Doesn't make up for Mint's lost traffic, and it certainly does not leave a precedence that will act as a disincentive for repetitions of such IPR violations. As idealistic as this may sound, I would say, Mint should use this opportunity to set an example and improve the system, as we are doing with the editorial and ethical standards in Indian journalism.

From Lessons in Cola, Copyright, Constitutionality and Generosity for dear Mr. Raju (from a self-appointed legal educator) « Original Fakes

October 20, 2008 5:20 PM

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From vivek sharma

October 21, 2008 12:45 AM
Hmmm. Tough One. Personally and instinctively and also at an intellectual plane, I am for copyleft but I see your point as well - having both bought and sold readerships/viewerships in an earlier avatar. To compound my personal misery in this case, I find that I love both the Mint and CSE equally. Cleary, I am torn and I can't decide. So I am going to put my ear to the ground and listen closely to all the wise people have their say here. I am So looking forward to revisiting this page a week from now again to scavenge the derbis.

From Rahul Dewan

October 21, 2008 12:46 PM
I think the author needs to move away from the use of words like "steal" and "theft", for the simple reason that CSE has been giving references to all articles it sources from news magazines and journals for its portal, clearly and with links to the sites from where it sourced them. In that sense CSE's portal is actually "driving traffic" to Mint's own site, just as it is doing for other sources, and "making them" "earn money". Let me also mention that the intended readers of this portal are environmentalists and researchers, who have been extremely under-served in this country, in terms of digitally available research content which mostly gets hidden behind IPR and payment/password protected information. CSE has released its 20 years of "Down To Earth" content, on the portal, with a clear intention of serving this community, and thus enabling the community to help create a paradigm shift in environment research and policy making. I can say this with some confidence as I have worked very intensely over this year in building the environment portal with Sunita (we're the development company; and I was leading the project from our end;). People who want to see vested interest in my post here will ofcourse see it, but really I have no business making this post this and defending CSE and Sunita - as we've been paid and our 'job' on the portal is done. I've seen the passion with which she and her team have invested time and energy in minute details of the portal, with the motive of enabling a change in India and this ignored space. It must have been a big decision for a non-profit which earns nearly all its revenues from its premier magazine (Down to Earth, and related compilations), to release all the content of 20 years on the portal. Ofcourse they want to earn money from the portal (and I suspect they are doing that now, as the author has suggested, as there are no commercial ads running), and should. They must earn well, and carry on their cause of environmental and societal change. Any such discussion, I belive, if revolves around rules and policies without considering "motivation" and "intention", then it ends up becoming inhuman - more like the world we live in today. And isn't this that we're all looking to change - all the mess that we've created in our world? I have asked some key people at CSE who've been involved in this portal, as to why they are there, and the answer often has been "this is more meaningful". Mind you, they are there even while compromising on the higher salaries that they can potentially get at publications like Live Mint. You hear these people's voice tones change when one talks about Anil Agarwal, the founder of CSE. This motivation and inspiration runs throughout CSE, and is visible in day-to-day interactions with them. I believe these aspects of an organisation and people, must be taken into account before passing strong judgments on them, specifically with strong words like "theft" and "steal". I must mention that being a promoter of the "open source" movement in India, we people hate proprietary stuff and promote knowledge and information (and money/wealth for that matter) to be shared among the world's people for fulfilling a larger purpose of our lives. Ofcourse, it maybe difficult for people with a pure capitalist (and profiteering only) mindset, to relate this thought process of "sharing" and "equity", to which most of us in the FOSS community, and according to me, CSE and Sunita, relate quite easily and instinctively.

From Sandip Bhattacharya

October 21, 2008 1:30 PM
I believe copyright should be respected, whatever the intent. However, I have a pet grouse over the use of the term 'IPR'. Stop using it. It is not a property. Whatever you have written here will become *public property* after some time. What you have is a *lease* - a lease which will expire after your death(plus some more years, thanks to Mickey Mouse). It is a lease to an "artist" such as you for creating a work of art.

From Controversy on IPR with the India Environment Portal « Srijan Live

October 21, 2008 1:44 PM

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From sugandh

October 21, 2008 4:49 PM
I agree that violation of copyright should not be tolerated but I think what CSE has done is not that. The fact that they have sourced the articles speaks volumes. They are infact also increasing readership for HT media.

From Prerna Dwivedi

October 21, 2008 4:58 PM
I think we are all stealing in some manner. I am sure Live Mint is also using several pirated softwares including Windows on their computers. I don't think CSE is making money out of the portal so an exception can be made in the larger benefit of society.

From Raju Narisetti

October 22, 2008 5:30 AM

For all of you saying CSE's purpose is noble and hence it should be exempt from the laws that govern India, it seems a very hypocritical approach. My point is simple. When someone (CSE) deliberately takes copyrighted content that is not theirs and then tells their users (as in users of the portal) that CSE won't be responsible for any violation of copyright, there is both intent and action. Whether they credit HT Media is immaterial when content is stolen from livemint.com. Livemint.com is a free site. So why doesn't CSE simply point to livemint.com for relevant Mint headlines. More than all this, why not seek permission before stealing and getting caught?

From V.B.N.Ram

October 22, 2008 7:34 AM
While one charged with stealing content, should never be allowed to get away by merely saying sorry or expressing gratitude- for his or her unethical and illegal act, content itself, being the composite collection of numerous knowledged inputs, can be enriched and transformed through the transfusion of ideas and concepts. However, such transfusion must be done in legitimate and ethical ways

From Prerna Dwivedi

October 22, 2008 10:52 AM
Yes I think what it all boils down to is profit, profit and more profit. Let CSR (Corporate social Responsibility)go to hell. A tiny NGO using a few articles on a government sponsored website for the benefit of thousands of people who are fighting to conserve the environment posing a huge threat to the income of a conglomerate. Come on guys find something more fruitful to do than hound CSE. We'll all respect you for that.

From Anitha

October 22, 2008 11:27 AM
Please see page 7 of Mint dated 21st October 2008. It is a media marketing initiative. See how Mint has used similar types for headline and body text to confuse the reader! This is ethical journalism!!

From Srini

October 22, 2008 3:57 PM
Mr.Narisetti, First a "legal" crib: Your own site says this: "3) You may not copy, reproduce, republish, download, post, broadcast, transmit, make available to the public, or otherwise use livemint.com content in any way except for your own personal, non-commercial use. You also agree not to adapt, alter or create a derivative work from any livemint.com content except for your own personal, non-commercial use. Any other use of livemint.com content requires the prior written permission of HT Media Ltd." "Non-commercial". Is CSE using the content for a commercial purpose? Or is your crib limited to violation of the term, "personal"? It must then be nitpicking. I dont' even see a single commercial link (say a Google Ad) on the portal in question. Whats the real problem then? Mountain out of a molehill? Is there a problem with Mint content being put up on CSE (despite due courtesy) or simply the fact that there is Mint Content on "CSE!! -- the environmental wallahs"? The larger point is this: If Mint is worried about the fact that it's content is re-hosted (even on non-commercial and other free to use site or on sites such as CSE's that believe in stopping theft of traditional knowledge of farmers and tribals by corporates who steal and sell such knowledge as IPR..oops I digress), why does it keep it free of cost on "its site". If that is done to drive advertising revenue on its site, then CSE's site is not violating that premise either, because it gives a link and a promotion of Mint content, driving more readers to Mint's site helping shore up even more advertising revenue. Therefore on legal as well as common sense grounds, I for one, don't see anything particularly problematic with this issue that Narisetti makes a issue of. And one more thing.. "stealing", "theiving" whoa.. if re-hosting content with due courtesy is stealing, what is anyone in journalism doing, when writing op-ed pieces? Every knowledge or any knowledge is built on more knowledge, no? Narisetti should read up on Copy-Left and the holes in the logic of IPR, I guess.

From Raju Narisetti

October 23, 2008 12:52 AM

Anitha--it is a fair, factual observation. As you know Mint has periodically run Notes to Readers on Page 1 explaining how pages dubbed Media Marketing Initiatives are not news and how they are essentially paid ads handled by HT Media's marketing department. Let me explain a bit of the process. When the ad department books a full page ad, then news simply hands off that space to the ad department and doesn't get to deal with that page. The ads are placed on that page by a department called Ad Operations, usually after the entire newspaper is "released" by news for ads to be then placed before the complete paper is released for printing. In this specific case, late 20th night, a desk editor was flagged about the ad and realized they were using the same Mint orange banner (folio) on the page. That was promptly changed to blue to avoid any resemblance to a normal news page. The font similariy was flagged by the graphics director as well but Ad Operations didn't bother to change it. The news side (me and my team) has since made a stink about this with the business side and they have since put in place more guidelines where such ads are flagged early to the COO of Mint to avoid future failures of established processes. In the 19 months of Mint, there have been over a dozen such pages and this was the first time that the font was the same. Doesn't make it any less of a problem since we (news side) have clearly told readers these are ads and have also promised them they wouldn't mimic Mint news font. Mistakes happen--the key is to not repeat them.  

From gautam

October 24, 2008 8:11 AM
This is silly. Is there a factual or notional loss to Mint because this content is on CSE's portal? If anything, this only serves to have more people reading your work and since Mint is the only place where they can get this, that's where they'll eventually have to end up as subscribers or readers. Who says no to free advertising? There's more value in the content being widely dispersed, with attribution, than in keeping it tied down and locked up. Of course, if your grouse is that you don't agree with CSE's 'work' and that this is a convenient axe with which to grind, well, grind away!

From Veeresh

October 26, 2008 2:59 PM
To my experience, the complete media circus in India is busy copying from everybody else, and that includes HT/LiveMint. So what is Raju getting so upset about, anyways? Regional papers copy from English newspapers, who in the first cse, often pick up stuff from the regional papers, so it is quite a happy never-ending circle. Photos from flickr are used by HT/TOI et al without any qualms all the time, seems flicking photos is considered kosher, and this has happened at HT Media of which Mint is certainly a vital component - a few minutes of searching on the internet gets you more than a few dozen known cases, take a look at this for example:- http://nitawriter.wordpress.com/2008/05/30/a-major-indian-newspaper-steals-a-bloggers-photograph/ Television as well as the larger English language newspapers blatantly copy from each other, and also from the regional language newspapers, and in this day and age it is not difficult to track back. In the days before the internet, the whole newsroom would wait for the newspapers to come. So OK, CSE used a few articles or more from Mint/HT Media, so what? Did it serve a larger cause, for the larger good? Yes it did. Should end there. My take - IPR was and still is a concept designed by the elite in the day before the information revolution to keep information from the masses. It has no place in this day and age. As for the commercial aspects of Raju's arguments - on newspapers costing 3-4 times more than what their sale prices are, and therefore needing protection of copyright laws - face it:- newspapers are published in India not for profit, but to give their owners some amount of power, which far outweighs the loss taken on printing them. And finally, if we go by the letter of the logic used by Raju, then the copyright should belong to the writer/photographer, not the publication. Now that's a deep one . . . Anyway I now got to make coffee, and hope nobody has a copyright on that process?

From Vinod

October 26, 2008 3:03 PM
Interesting to see how a point about respecting IPR and some basic rules of giving credit where it is due has evolved into the battle against "profit", the "tiny NGO" vs the "conglomerate" and the "sharing" and "equity" mindset of some vs the "profiteering" mindset of others! In India today, no one is likely to reproduce an article or a thought piece in a print publication without seeking prior approval from the author or the organisation that generated it. However, it is considered fair game to do so on the internet. That I believe is wrong, period! Also couldn't help wonder that if the same spirit of "sharing" and "equity" applies to all aspects of the CSE site, the developers should have developed it for free as opposed to getting "paid for it". Am sure there was absolutely no "profit" involved in that transaction!

From Raju Narisetti

October 27, 2008 10:17 AM

Veeresh--May I suggest you don't sling mud without facts backing it up. If you think Mint has copied from anyone without permission or attribution, suggest you provide facts and I will be happy to respond. And if you read the blog post that triggered your comment closely, you will see it refers and links to a Mint (Page 1) story about how Indian newspapers steal pictures from web and also cited that Hindustan Times has also been accused of doing so. So I am not sure where you are going with your insinuations. Thanks. Raju

From Prosenjit Datta

October 27, 2008 12:09 PM
I think too much is being made about the "non-commercial" use by CSE by its defenders. That is not the point. I completely agree with Raju's point that if CSE had wanted merely to highlight the article, it could have linked the article to the Livemint site. The issue is not money -- it is about credit and following certain basic courtesies. In my opinion, copying and reproducing an article in your website without taking permission from the creators of the article is morally and ethically wrong.

From Srini

October 27, 2008 1:17 PM
To Prosenjit Datta: You say that copying and reproducing without taking permission is unethical and morally wrong. The question is how? If there is due credit provided to the author as well as the host of the author's creation, in this case, Mint; where does "morally wrong and unethical" come into the picture here? CSE has given due credit to both Mint and the author for the article's publication. Where lies the problem? It is unethical and immoral, if someone took up articles in question and published it in her/his name without attribution. Such is not the case here. Besides, Mint's rules themselves mention that the articles can be shared/ used for personal, non-commercial purposes. As such, there is no prima facie violation that I see in CSE's actions.

From Prerna Dwivedi

October 27, 2008 2:41 PM
Having read all the comments, I now feel that Raju Narisetti is behaving in exactly the same fashion as anyone of us would if something of ours was being used without letting us know. Nothing wrong with it. Yet to turn it into a mudslinging fight against CSE seems a bit naive. I think it is simply an urge, to gain publicity by attacking an organisation like CSE, which has huge credibility in India as well as abroad, just like Raj Thakeray has done to Amitabh Bachhan and his family. Can't blame Mint. So many others have tried it and came out much wiser. There seems to be no Mint content on the India Knowledge Portal anymore so let's just call it quits.

From Prashant Reddy

October 27, 2008 9:22 PM
Please ping back on the above link for an IP blogger's take on the issue.

From http://spicyipindia.blogspot.com/2008/10/centre-for-science-and-environment-cse.html

October 27, 2008 9:24 PM
Please ping back on the above link for an IP blogger's take on the issue.

From utility price protection | Bookmarks URL

October 29, 2008 10:01 AM

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From vivek sharma

October 29, 2008 3:15 PM
i have tried to upload 5 times over 3 days and cant. wot cud it be?

From vivek sharma

October 29, 2008 3:25 PM
First, let me define the parameters as I see it. This is not a simple A Vs B situation. We are not talking of a Business Today ‘stealing’ or the Economic Times ‘thieving’ from Mint. If that were the case, this would be a no-brainer and all of Raju’s woes and law should apply. This becomes interesting because of the particular value systems that each of the involved party subscribes to. Let’s also be clear that one is not better or superior to the other; or that one has more ethics and integrity per sq feet of office space or terabytes of server capacity than the other. Neither is this about whether Mint has more investments to make and therefore obligated to make profits and if CSE is ‘noble’ or ‘moral’ and therefore can play the role of media Robinhood with license to ‘steal’. This is essentially about worldviews and a clash of ideas. Mint will talk about IPR because it represents the ‘formal’ economy and the IPR is a cornerstone of its worldview but why must CSE subscribe to those rules when it represents exactly the opposite? I am not suggesting that CSE must live outside the legal system and break the law, (it follows and enforces the rules of the ‘system’ for its publications) but I will imagine that when push comes to shove about the larger point, CSE will do a Dandi on this issue? (I hope they do, or my argument goes flat and I’ll have egg on my face – which is fine, since I want to focus on the principle). Mint will rightly argue that with no protection, there will be little innovation. While Mint will celebrate the granting of IPR to a company for a computer OS, turmeric, wheat, neem, malaria tablets etc, CSE will work to keep them in community custody. Will either system work if it were the only system – No. Can either system claim to even begin to address the complex realities and aspirations for an equitable and just 21st century – No. Both serve a vital purpose to keep an economy buzzing and it will be delusional for either to be totalitarian on this. So far, both systems have operated in their own zones and therefore lived through relative calm. However, as Raju has discovered to his amazement, we will all be living increasingly in this intersecting grey zone of worldviews which will apply both to the past – traditional knowledge, molecules, etc and the future – internet, molecules, etc, and we will have to engage with real and notional infringements of it. There is no point in discussing this particular case threadbare because it will lead to a deadend but this case can and must take us to the important issue of the Tragedy of the Commons where costs are imposed on others without their consent. This imposition of costs applies to the worldviews of both sides. Economists call these externalities and this can happen because of overuse or underproduction or under representation. These occur because of the lack of property rights or the lack of enforcement thereof. From Mint’s perspective if we view this situation through Ronald Coase –coloured glasses here is what we get. The Coase theorem says: When property rights are assigned and enforced, bargaining leads to maximizing social utility, no matter how the rights are initially assigned! The initial assignment of rights affects only the final distribution of utility (profit). I’ve been told that this is the basis for finding our way out of complex issues, for example, like discovering the price of carbon by fixing the framework through the caps and trade system operates. An aside - this of course works when there is ‘perfect information’…. and as we have seen like with the free market, there isn’t any, ask Greenspan. The Indiaenvironmentalportal at one level is about putting things back into the commons. Why are the Commons not more common? Entrepreneurs, like in this case, the Mint, put effort into defining and enforcing property rights, and capture some of the value created. Fredrich Hayek would say information acquisition is fundamental and so according to him entrepreneurs and managers do not have a problem of how to allocate given resources (to gain information), rather it is a problem of utilization of knowledge which is not given to anyone in totality. Shouldn’t the same rules apply? What Mint sets out to do for its subscribed readers, CSE does for all. If I were CSE I should be ready to hold on to this skirmish and do battle because it helps draw attention to the big IPR war that must be fought. On the other hand, if I were Mint, I will leave it at the level where it is – an intelligent finger pointing observation at best or if you want to be uncharitable, a whine. As of today, the IPR system is operationally necessary for society to conduct its business in as ‘civil’ a manner as possible, but it is morally and ethically hollow (like slavery) and does not – nay, will not, stand the test of time. Beyond saying that CSE has done something illegal, (which I take is true, but let the lawyers decide that), I will be happy if Raju can make a case of why ‘his law’ is superior and for the greater benefit of society. I assume, Mint defines ‘value’ as monetizing the entire chain – for itself and its readers who presumably will know how to monetize the insights gleaned from the paper. The CSE definition will be relatively fuzzier and intangible, immeasurable because it stretches into the collective. The fundamentals though are the same. Who usurped who’s rights? I repeat, I respect both entities - Mint and CSE for who they are, but this is about what side they represent. Isn’t it increasingly understood that the successful underpinnings of the ‘formal’ economy’ is because of its ability to get away by imposing costs to the natural resource base – indigenous people’s wisdom, culture, natural habitat and so on. Depending on where you fix the starting point for the conversation, it may quite turn out that the current flag bearers of IPR may uncomfortably find themselves at the wrong side of the thin red line. continued....

From vivek sharma

October 29, 2008 3:29 PM
continued... Lastly, I picked up the Mahabharata (An Enquiry in the Human Condition by Chaturvedi Badrinath) to learn that quote “in case there is conflict between one dharma and another, one should reflect on their relative weight, and then act accordingly; what does not denigrate and obstruct the others is dharma. Acknowledging the importance of material prosperity, individual and collective, the Mahabharata is at the same time saying, in the clearest of voices, that wealth should be earned through dharma and never through adharma. It is saying that the pursuit of material prosperity of the one, or of a few, should never have the effect of depriving, starving, diminishing, separating, uprooting, hurting, doing violence, debasing and degrading the other. When it does, it becomes self-destructive in the first place. True wealth, individual and social is that wealth which creates: nurturing, cherishing, providing amply, enriching, increasing, enhancing all living beings; and secures for all living beings freedom from violence, freedom from fear. These are the three foundations of artha, true material prosperity; and they are the main attributes of Dharma. The most striking feature of the Mahabharata is its honest observation of the human condition. It is a self-evident fact that what is ‘right’ in one context becomes ‘wrong’ in another context. There are familiar occasions of conflict between two sets of duties, both inviolable. There are situations of conflict between right and right. (and I will place this issue as an example). The value of an act, the Mahabharata shows, depends not only upon one’s motives wholly, but also upon desha and kala, ‘the given place’ and ‘the given time’. The sages have in the treaties relating to Dharma, wealth and material prosperity, and ultimate human freedom, too considered ‘time’ and ‘place’ to be the prime factors in human achievements. ‘Place’ can be seen but not ‘time’. It is within these two coordinates, one seen and the other unseen, that the drama of human life is endlessly enacted. In the light of the relativity of situations, the Mahabharata subjects every human attribute, satya and dharma, ‘truth’ and ‘order’, most of all to intense examination. In describing Yudhisthira’s doubts regarding dharma and adharma, the Mahabharata is honestly raising a question as regards their relativity. A typical statement of relativism is contained in that verse from the Mahabharata which says: “Sacrifice the individual for the sake of the family; the family, for the sake of the village; the village, for the sake of the region; and sacrifice the world for the sake of the soul.” Unquote. On balance, CSE must not break the law, unless it has a stated explicit purpose and point to make, which in this case as I see it, is to look at the larger issue of IPR. If this is not the point it wants to make, then the incident pointed out by Raju, looks like a cheap sneak that diminishes the list of laurels the CSE can do without. And Raju, for all the legalese you can muster, when it comes to IPR, at best your side is an ethical pygmy with integrity perilously close to zero. This is my humble opinion and I am willing to learn more about this.

From prosenjit datta

October 29, 2008 4:28 PM
Hi Srini, Please focus on the word "permission". Did CSE seek permission before putting up the Mint article on their website? I assume -- and I have only Raju's blog to go by -- that they didn't. That makes it unethical in my book, even if they gave credit to Mint/and the author... I don't know about HT Media or Raju specifically, but many other media companies and editors do not have any problems giving permission to reproduce specific articles in non-commercial websites/intranets provided that permission is sought in the first case.... From what I can make out of Raju's blog, this permission was not sought. Whether Mint would have given permission or not is a differnet issue. The issue here is that CSE needed to seek permission to put up the article on its website....

From Prerna Dwivedi

October 31, 2008 11:19 AM
Dear friends this discussion on IPRs is now useless as I have come to know that our friend Raju had already sent a legal notice to CSE before starting this blog page. What a waste of time.

From Himanshu Mehta

November 1, 2008 6:47 PM
i work with a news channel and we always charge non-profits (there are exceptions of course) for all the content that they acquire from us. Why should Mint dole out it's content for free or why should it allow it to be used without as much as 'by your leave'? Non-profits have a budget for content creation and licensing rights should be budgeted for just as everything else is during the creation process.

From Raju Narisetti

November 4, 2008 5:29 AM

Prerna--Did you think HT Media Ltd would simply let me debate the issue in blogs when the company's copyrighted content was being taken without permission? If you haven't realized by now, there is a serious violation of Indian Copyright Act here. All the back and forth arguments here can be used by CSE in a court if they so choose to. And let the courts decide who is right and who isn't. I assume all of us are for rule of law prevailing in India.

And for all those on this forum talking about their NGO status being one reason why they should be let off the hook, wouldn't it be quite interesting to see how much they are getting paid by the Knowledge Commission for managing/providing content to this portal?

Raju Narisetti

From Prerna Dwivedi

November 5, 2008 12:24 PM
Dear Raju I entirely agree about violation of your copyright and I don't contest your claim to compensation but please don't stoop so low and start asking questions about funding of CSE. Why don't you, for a change consider supporting CSE and other NGOs for what they are doing for the benefit of society. Can you ever think of thanking CSE for exposing the cola companies and trying to make the food that me, you, our families consume or for that matter for the clean air we breathe due to CSE's campaign for CNG. I sincerely appeal to you that please first consider this whole idea of NGO bashing as a citizen of Delhi and then do what feels right. Don't be the catalyst for the demise of the civil society organisation.

From Ravi Srinivasan

November 5, 2008 7:37 PM
Raju, Have you considered the possibility of a more innocent explanation? That the copyright notice put up on the website was included at the time the site was being constructed and the Joe Blow who i actually managing the site for CSE has no clue about it -- or for that matter, a clear idea of the notion of copyright? I have found this attitude scarily prevalent in many newsrooms. Many reporters use Google as a substitute for fact discovery and research. Many journalists also are genuinely surprised when I have told them not to use stuff off the net without a) checking the facts b) checking to see whether one can use it and c) take necessary permission. However, unless you have this as a well-established drill, the odd bit does slip through. An illustrator might use a picture, a sub some additions or backgrounds, and of course, reporters sourcing a pack of information. The fact that CSE appears to have been attributing the source to Mint suggests that there was no mala fide; it may simply mean that whoever was doing it probably didn't know that that was not enough.

From shubho sengupta

November 8, 2008 7:06 PM
Raju, it seems you've bitten off more than you can chew. Your point is 100% valid, but the tone and manner you've chosen to articulate it - for reasons best known to yourself - have turned this into a Big Corporate vs Small NGO debate. Please do read the writing on the wall - your blog wall, the majority of the posts clearly think you've goofed. As a Mint reader, my request is don't drag a great publication into further controversy. Leave these things to the legal team. And the courts.

From Raju Narisetti

November 9, 2008 6:47 PM

Shubho--if we really wanted to make this a battle between a big corporate vs a small ngo (neither of which actually are entirely accurate statements re ht media's bigness nor cse's smallness), you can imagine it would have been rather easy to do this in a much more skewed manner using the newspaper's pages, which by its very static nature is a one-way flow of information. I think debates are healthy, which is why I respond once in a while to a specific comment as well. Meanwhile, if the majority view (online or otherwise) dictated the outcomes of private behavior, you can imagine how different a paper Mint would have ended up to be from its current position, given what the majority of business papers look and read like. I am sure HT's legal department will take its own actions...that shouldn't dictate what Mint's editorial does or doesn't, let alone what a Mint blogger can do or not. Incidentally, if anyone out there wants to look at Mint's record of covering serious ngo/environmental issues in its 19 months of existence, especially examining track record of some "big corporates," I am happy to stack that record up against any other business paper in India.

From Prerna Dwivedi

November 10, 2008 4:47 PM
Raju - your paper is not doing either the readers or the environment any favour. It is entirely a market driven decision that makes newspapers and magazines publish such stories. People across the world are becoming more aware about environment and how to reduce their ecological footprint. You are only catering to that demand and not driving an environmental movement on your own - like CSE. And by the way a little birdie told me that one of your star environment journalists is an ex CSE person. Something you can surely give CSE credit for. I must also thank you for being so open to debate and letting us post our messages on this blog.

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