The Decriminalisation of IPC 377 - Still single in the city

The Decriminalisation of IPC 377

Sushmita Bose - Saturday, July 04, 2009 4:51 PM

I am too excited about the Delhi High Court order scrapping Section 377 of the Indian Penal Code, so I couldn't wait till Sunday to post. I heard about the ‘landmark judgement' at 4 pm on Thursday, when one of my colleagues, a young Indian girl, informed me in a baffled tone: "Did you hear about the Delhi High Court order? They have revoked IPC 377."

"Are you serious?" I almost couldn't believe my ears. I checked Google News -- and there it was. In one stroke, the Indian judiciary had emerged out of the Dark Ages and blazed into the third millennium. "Hooray!" I said.

"You mean... you support the decision?" my colleague asked me, sounding most disbelieving.

"Yes, of course, isn't that a no-brainer?"

"But it's so unnatural, it's so WEIRD. How can they legitimise alternate sexuality?"

I explained my theory to her: your personal life and your sexual orientation is your choice; the state -- or anybody else -- cannot tell you what to be or what to do. As long as you are not harming anybody or acting against larger public interests, you are free to do what you want. You cannot arrest someone because he or she prefers to be with a same-sex person. Simple. "Cheer up," I told her, as she continued to look crestfallen. "We've proved today -- at least our judiciary has -- that we are capable of free thinking: surely, that's worth something?"

"This means, soon, we'll all be arranging same-sex marriages?" she continued, looking very miserable. "Parents will be expected to get their sons married to a boy? Oh dear!"

Well, I laughed, same-sex marriages are a long way off. "This basically means that being homosexual is not equivalent to being a criminal." She looked a tad reassured, but then I completely ruined it for her by saying, "It'll be really awesome if same-sex marriages were to be legalised in India! I can picture some of my gay friends getting married."

After that, I tried by best to do damage control by explaining the likely consequences to her -- in very objective terms. This is going to -- hopefully -- encourage more gays to come out of the closet, and we won't be confronted with situations where a gay man is forced to marry a woman, and the marriage ends up in a disaster for both parties. AIDS campaigns will be easier to manage with more people being upfront about their sexual preferences. Families of gays and lesbians will realise what their wards are indulging in is not "illegal", and will be more accepting of their choices.

Provided, of course, we, as a society, come out in support and categorically state being a homosexual is NOT a stigma and reaffirm it's just a way of life. Finally, I told her: "You're straight, so as a woman you'd want to be with a man -- that's your prerogative, nobody is asking you to do otherwise. So if somebody is homosexual, why would you want to take away his or her basic right to be with the person he or she wants to be with?"

I don't know what the ‘straight' reaction is back home (I'd love to know, so if any of you have any information about what the average man or woman on the street is thinking, do shoot me a comment), but most Indians here greeted the news with either wide-eyed disbelief or a snigger. Cherry Tree -- my Mallu friend -- was as happy about it as I was. "This is really great news," he exulted. "People have every right in the world to be what they want to be: straight or gay."  

When I told an American colleague about it, she almost whooped. "Wow!" she said. "That's so cool... you must be over the moon. There must be celebrations back home, right?"

Er, not really. Religious heads -- from all denominations -- are, predictably, muttering darkly how all this goes against "Indian culture". A noted doctor has reportedly said that "HIV, AIDS and venereal diseases would spread like wild fire if such a move is made legal". Does he mean that ‘in the closet' gays will suddenly throw caution to the winds and be imbued with a deathwish? What were they doing so far? Practising safe sex has to now be equated with criminality?

Politicians are going slightly batty: they are making all kinds of confused noises. I guess they are trying to figure out if the gay community can be channelised into something more meaningful -- like, say, a vote-bank.

Newspaper reports are quoting people from "all walks of life" saying this order is antithetical to our "values". Huh? Really? As far as I know, our "values" also teach us not to mix around too freely with members of the opposite sex -- that's a sign of bad upbringing. If I stay out too late with a man, my neighbours will make it their business to find out why I am being dropped back home by a man at 3 am. God forbid, if he comes inside my house at that hour; my landlord will most likely give me marching orders the next day itself for indulging in sinful activities. So why are we suddenly getting so excited about a man's place being next to a woman -- not next to another man? Does this mean that girlie late nights will now suddenly be viewed with a great deal of suspicion? ("No, what EXACTLY were you girls up to?" I may well be asked by upholders of our values).

It amazes me we've grown up so fast. Even 15 years ago, homosexuality was almost unheard of -- in public domain. My first encounter with it was a reel one -- the movie Philadelphia. "What was the funny thing about the film?" somebody asked me. "The fact that the character Tom Hanks played on screen was dismissed from work because he had AIDS," I replied. "No, silly," I was told. "The funny bit was that he was gay... didn't you find that odd?"

I didn't. I realised I hadn't even given much thought to it because, in the movie, Tom Hanks being with his boyfriend (Antonio Banderas) seemed so normal. They were in love, right? 

Then, Fire happened. Personally, I thought it was a bad movie because it was too apologetic. Even as there were large-scale protests all over India and movie theatres were forced to stop screenings, in Calcutta, a lobby of women marched down one afternoon saying it is not an offence to watch a movie with a lesbian theme.

I grew up too. I now have many close friends who are gay. I am sure my friend Ashok Row Kavi is a happy man; he's always believed in wearing his heart on his sleeve. Maybe it's too soon to personally name the others, but the wonderful thing is all that is about to change.

So, here's to a new India -- where co-existence and acceptance and tolerance will be the ways forward. Let's hope we don't turn back from here.

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From Dhiraj

July 4, 2009 6:02 PM
It’s a great step forward but I personally feel it’s too early to decriminalize IPC 377. I think the society is not yet ready for it & it may go horribly wrong.

From arvind

July 4, 2009 6:04 PM
Very true Sush. This was such a welcome move and thanks so much for writing about it in such a matter of fact manner. I hope our leaders show us the way forward by not getting into the Indian culture trap. The average man on the street, I feel, is in a state of shock. Nobody could believe this actually happened. Thank god, we are moving with the times.

From sushmita

July 4, 2009 6:12 PM
Dhiraj: When do you think society will be ready? Is there anything being done for masses to get used to the idea that homosexuality is prevalent? Most of us still cannot come to terms with homosexuality, even though it exists: for how long? Also, why do you say something can go horribly wrong? What is worse than leading lives 'hidden' from the rest of the world? I am asking you these questions coz I really want to know what people back home are thinking.

From Mayank

July 4, 2009 6:41 PM
A small step for the law, a giant LEAP for mankind (and womankind too, if u please). *chuckles*

From pawandeep

July 4, 2009 8:52 PM
I may sound backward, but to me a man holding man's hand (even before this High Court Order) always seemed quite unnatural. And now with this Order of High Court, I am sure we are going to see more and more of it, and I for one , am not comfortable with this order.

From Abhiroop Banerjee

July 4, 2009 9:28 PM
Quick Thoughts! 1. Delhi witnessed its largest gay pride within hours of the judgment. The second one in less than a year. Lost of colors, huge fun. Next time, I'll join them! 2. I was in the Metro a few hours ago and a group our izzatdar class was tut-tutting regretfully 'jab court ka yehi haal hai to aam aadmi kya keh sakta hai? chalo dekhte hain...kya bigad jaayega. hamari society [meaning, I think, his apartment complex] mein to koi aise pange nai honge. vaise bhi dilli mein isse bade bade issues hain..' 3.Current headlines in the Nation section of The Times of India - (i)Gay sex should not be legalized at any cost: Lalu (ii)Gays could make a vote bank 4. My two paisas: the govt was making some tentative noises about 'looking at section 377' and probably trying to judge the national mood or something, when the delhi high court dropped this bombshell judgment, possibly making it easier for them to push through any positive changes they had in mind. The prime minister is also looking into it, highlighting the issue's importance and raising hopes that dismissing it [by appealing and getting a stay from the SC or issuing an ordinance] in the face of the widespread protests that are starting to break out won't be the immediate reaction. 5. Live and let live. Jai ho!

From rambilas

July 4, 2009 10:28 PM
By nature every living item is sexy on this earth. In India even the natural sex between male and female is not accepted unless they are married. When a boy and a girl stay together they are not accepted by the society. Now Gays can stay together is acceptable by society. Talking to a girl is dangerous but walking with a gay is acceptable. If boys and girls are allowed freely just to sit together and exchange their views they will never like to follow the gay culture.

From Vinnie

July 5, 2009 12:59 AM
It was the same in every country after homosexual acts became legal. Churches outraged, a majority alienated at first. But the change in society came faster than many predicted. In Europe, already just one generation later, being gay was a total non-issue except for with certified fools and hard-line clerics. Same will happen in India, just give it a few years. The judgement was long overdue, certainly not too early, and is a prerequisite for a change in society. A recent poll in Germany on the question of "Would you be comfortable with a gay Chancellor?" (Chancellor being the German chief/prime minister) turned out a whopping 80% which chose "yes, no problem" as an answer. The question actually has a certain relevance as a few leading politicians in Germany, seen as potential future heads of government, are openly gay. Amazing, huh? While Germany is no country which you would easily label as "immoral".

From awara

July 5, 2009 7:20 AM
great decision indeed. i am told the biggest gain is to the campaign against HIV. right now, it is very difficult for activists to address the issue, especially MSM (men-having sex-with men), because the act of copulation was illegal; MSM is apparently rampant among long haul truck drivers in India. hopefully it is one more step in resolving the repressed attitude towards sex in India--one of the ugly fall outs of which is the sobriquet that India is the rape capital of the world and the rampant peodophilia (which got openly addressed for the first time probably in Mira Nair's Monsoon Wedding).

From evita

July 5, 2009 9:00 AM
im all for the judgement, though i couldn't believe tht in times where we are seeing the resurgence of the moral police a judgment of this magnitude was delivered. In an India where you have self appointed custodians of moral fiber, confused enough to call ones sexual preference a "western and corrupting concept", its as though the courts in a single stroke ripped a one layer off the conflicting identities that india is and said - deal with it!

From Prakash

July 5, 2009 10:40 AM
Great blog! I am glad you wrote this, it is so difficult to believe that Indians have all these ancient statues in temples which depict gays and still think it is unnatural! I hope we will truly be democratic someday.

From sanjay Chaturvedi

July 5, 2009 11:33 AM
dear what do you mean by legalizing the homosexuality and scrapping the IPC377 (Section 377. Unnatural offences Whoever voluntarily has carnal intercourse against the order of nature with any man, woman or animal, shall be punished with 1[imprisonment for life], or with imprisonment of either description for term which may extend to ten years, and shall also be liable to fine. Explanation. -Penetration is sufficient to constitute the carnal intercourse necessary to the offence described in this section.) actually this has been given under the heading of INDIAN PENAL CODE and it is just after the 375 and 376 which define rape and under this heading it is not possible to give definition of unnatural sex that is why a different category if this will be scraped than where the victim of unnatural RAPE will get the justice.

From Mayank

July 5, 2009 12:32 PM
bad thing.. i was pulling my *friend's* leg and told her "am bored yaar, u shud look for a new companion for me". She immediately replied "yeah, with the new HC ruling, u sure wud b bored with me" :(

From Mayank

July 5, 2009 12:32 PM
bad thing.. i was pulling my *friend's* leg and told her "am bored yaar, u shud look for a new companion for me". She immediately replied "yeah, with the new HC ruling, u sure wud b bored with me" :(

From sushmita

July 5, 2009 1:23 PM
Pawandeep: lol, men holding hands with men is quite a common sight in India. u don't have to be gay in order to hold a man's hand! did you know when Sholay was released, and Veeru and Jai were having fun on the scooter in Yeh Dosti..., many Westerners said, "wow, what a cool depiction of homosexuality"!! Pawandeep, many of us may not be 'comfortable' with it, but my point was YOU don't have to do anything u are not comfortable with; but nobody can stop anyone from doing what he/she wants to do -- as long as they are not getting destructive. A relationship based on love can never be destructive. and believe me, once it becomes a way of life, we will all come to terms with it.

From sushmita

July 5, 2009 1:31 PM
Abhiroop, I really hope our politicians don't muck up the whole thing and get a stay on the order. Let's move with the times. Vinnie: Bang on, you've summed it up perfectly. Evita: the moral police -- or the lunatic fringe -- in all over the world have nothing else to do but wait for times like this. They cannot justify their existence unless they make a song and dance abt every little non-issue in the world. So let them do what they are best at: who cares? Prakash: like i said, we are confused about everything. Hopefully, we'll get some direction now!

From pawandeep

July 5, 2009 1:31 PM
Sushmita, 2-3 times, near Palika Bazar in CP, during the evening time, I have seen couple of boys sitting together and holding their hands.( I am sure they donot stop just there ) But to me , just looking at them is uncomfortable. But then you are right, we cannot stop others . In life we have to accept so many things and this is one more of those.

From sushmita

July 5, 2009 1:35 PM
Sanjay: You make an extremely valid point. But I don't think the order is directed at scrapping 'unnatural rape' from the purview of legality. Unnatural rape or rape will remain punishable offences. The whole point was to tell the gay comuunity: you are not criminals for what you do. If there is 'unnatural rape', well then, that will be dealt with in the same manner as 'natural rape' is dealt with.

From sushmita

July 5, 2009 1:37 PM
Pawandeep, that's the spirit :) Live and let live, but don't harm anyone.

From sushmita

July 5, 2009 1:41 PM
Mayank, stop trying to be so Woody Allen-esque :D

From Rohit

July 5, 2009 5:10 PM
I was just watching this show on AAJ TAK or some other news channel... the topic under discussion was the same... the debate was heated up... one of the speaker was a retired police officer.. he raised a point that if gayism is all about ones individuality where one can do watever he wants without the fear of society then so can GAMBLING, SMOKING and other such issues be legalised as they are concerned with a person's individual habbits...

From sushmita

July 5, 2009 7:14 PM
Rohit: That's way off, right? If u are gambler, you are start bargaining with your -- and ur family's -- security. Not good. Smoking is a killer. There are serious, and proven, health issues. If a gambler or a smoker can handle the consequences -- then, that's his/her life. But society is entitled to warn you. It's up to you to heed the warning. In what way does homosexuality affect well-being? I'm talking abt quantifiable consequences, not things like "this is not Indian culture".

From Abhiroop Banerjee

July 5, 2009 10:24 PM
@Sushmita: Lets hope nothing takes things back. We can be optimistic though, since the sarkar itself was talking about amending Section 377. Now its the second headline I mentioned up there, the one about gays being a possible vote bank, that might actually dissuade our netas from rubbishing this decision of the HC. No, seriously! According to this July 3 story in the ToI [ http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Gay-count-varies-from-2-to-13-of-population/articleshow/4731097.cms ] the number of gays in our country could be as high as 100 million. Or even higher. Maybe the Naz Foundation should get someone to hard sell this nugget to the political parties :D

From Abhiroop Banerjee

July 5, 2009 10:27 PM
Anyone remember the old Manoj Kumar song?

Bas yahi apraadh mein har baar kartaa hun.. Aadmi hun aadmi sey pyaar karta hun
*grin*

From sushmita

July 5, 2009 10:52 PM
Abhiroop, thanks boss, for such great info (you've been clearly doing ur homework!)... 100 million is actually feasible. One organisation I had spoken to while I was in HT had said about 14-15 per cent of Indians are homosexual: latent and active (both closet and outed). I was pretty surprised when I heard that: the first thing that came to my mind was that at least one in 10 people around me are homosexual. Just goes to show how mainstream the community is! The Manoj Kumar song? lol!

From Akansha

July 5, 2009 10:56 PM
@Abhiroop/Sush: Thanks for the figures, I had no idea. This was really quite a revelation!

From Abhiroop Banerjee

July 5, 2009 11:12 PM
:) Thanks!
I was in a boys' school, and in a workshop conducted by an NGO, we were informed that 10% of all males are homosexual, or at least have strong homosexual tendencies. We came out making regulation cracks involving PT sir and Vice Principal sir, but all of us wondered - 'hey, 10%? thats, like..every tenth guy ..of US! Who could they be?' - while looking around at everyone's faces, as if that was going to help. We never really stopped wondering. Boys who were perceived as slightly effeminate were usually accused of being closet gays. Makes me cringe now. Would have been so much better for everyone had we had some formal education about alternate sexuality...
Just think, statistically speaking, at least one player in our cricket team is gay, and so are over 1 lakh soldiers in the million man Indian Army. The point? Gays have always been around in every sphere of life, in every occupation, and it has never hurt 'us' in any way.

From Anand

July 6, 2009 9:16 AM
@Sushmita: De-criminalizing homosexuality aligns us closer to the rest of the modern world so I am for it. However, the Delhi High Court decision is binding ONLY in Delhi. It does not impact gays living in the rest of India so we need to wait and see what the govt. does next. Perhaps they will scrap IPC 377 - but it is going to be very hard though because the Muslim and Christian groups are already up in arms over this judgment based on their religious sentiments. Politicians will have to balance the unknown potential of the gay vote bank against their well-known vote banks of the minorities. Its going to be tough for politicians - thats why they are sitting very quiet on this issue.

From Abhiroop Banerjee

July 6, 2009 9:47 AM
@Anand Good point. The Times of India addressed this question in another 3 July article titled 'Will Delhi HC gay order apply across India?' [ http://tinyurl.com/hc-gayruling ]. Excerpts: "...the law laid down by a 2004 SC judgment implies that homosexuals across the country may rest assured that they too are entitled to the benefits of the historic Delhi high court decision on Section 377 IPC."
and "“An order passed on writ petition questioning the constitutionality of a Parliamentary Act, whether interim or final, will have effect throughout the territory of India subject of course to the applicability of the Act.”"
Also, its not just Muslim and Christian groups. They're all in it this time!
Tell you what. Had it applied only to Delhi, then thats the first argument we'd have heard against the ruling! Since none of the stringent protests has taken that line, perhaps we can assume that its not really a problem?

From anand

July 6, 2009 10:07 AM
@Abhiroop: Actually I read in one of the newspapers (don't recall which one!) that this ruling has jurisdiction only in Delhi. The newspaper reported that PIL's will now be submitted in courts across the country to get a similar ruling in every state using this one as a precedent. Of course all this is costly and time-consuming. It would be best if the Delhi ruling could be applied all over the country - so I hope your news is correct.

I singled out the Muslim and Christian groups because these are considered (perhaps wrongly) as the reliable vote-banks for our politicians and these groups are most vocal against this ruling. So this is the issue that is causing politicians to stop and think this through carefully.

From sushmita

July 6, 2009 10:50 AM
Anand: You almost had me there! As Abhiroop says, if the ruling is applied across the country, then jai ho. Else, it could be considered a precedent (a point u make later) and applicable all over the country, right? I have a feeling the govt will think twice before they question the HC decision. In an era of global recognition, they may be scared of what this will do to their 'progressive' image. Religious heads, seriously, need to be told their jurisdiction lies within their respective places of worship, not the whole country. Abhiroop: what is the Left's reaction to this? Haven't read anything so far. I remember the pro-Fire demonstration in Calcutta was organised by the CPM's women's wing.

From Sarabjit

July 6, 2009 10:51 AM
The recent judgement on art. 377 has gobbled too much bandwidth. The media seems to have run out of all other issues. A report in HT mentioned press photographers telling a gay couple in CP, "Honey ko kiss karo, ab toh legal hai...". BTW Sush, saw ur pic on the facebook today.....hope u arent gay. What a waste that would be....

From sushmita

July 6, 2009 12:59 PM
Sarabjit, lol! Btw, the only reason why this matter is getting such intense spotlight (at times, totally unwarranted) is that it's such a 'forbidden fruit'. We should just start getting used to it.

From sushmita

July 6, 2009 1:05 PM
Abhiroop: Forgot to tell u something else. U truly belonged to a 'privileged' class in school: at least somebody came to your school, and educated you on the subject. Most of us, for a long time, lived with the notion that homosexuality does not exist -- or it only exists among decadent, non-Indian minded people whose lifestyles have been impacted by evil Western influences.

From KNVS Subrahmanyam

July 6, 2009 2:09 PM
There is more excitement about Delhi High Court's decision on scrapping Secion 377 of IPC. Now gay sex will be open and we may witness the same in public places soon. Is it the intention of judiciary to allow gay sex openly? With 24x7 working we have given goodbye to our culture, now with this judgement, what will happen in the pubic places is anybody's guess. Even god also cannot save us.

From RDX

July 6, 2009 2:34 PM
I am neither against Gay community nor a promoter of Gay'ism. Agreed, it is individual choice & Gays needs to be treated as normal person. However, I believe, the blatant display of gay’ism can confuse tender minds about their sexuality. Awareness level in difference in rural & urban India is huge and surely nobody will like to have another division based on tolerance.

From sushmita

July 6, 2009 3:01 PM
Mr Subrahmanyam: With all due respect sir, where is there 'blatant display' of sex? There is a common code of decorum, and everyone is expected to abide by that. Just the way 'straight' couples do not indulge in 'blatant sex', so will gay couples. If anyone crosses the line -- and disturbs public sensitivities -- anyone, as a citizen, can protest. There's a mechanism to take care of that, don't worry :) RDX: I doubt very much if there will be 'blatant' displays.

From sahil

July 6, 2009 3:09 PM
@Sush: Love the way you are so hopeful, and being so level-headed about it at the same time. God bless!

From Ron

July 6, 2009 3:20 PM
@KNVS Subrahmanyam: Since you mentioned God, then it was Him who created everyone, straight or homosexual. What do you think His plan was?

From KNVS Subrahmanyam

July 6, 2009 3:29 PM
In my comments, I expressed my personal views with an apprehension. Citizens of our country either due to god fear or family backgorund still maintaining our cultural values. Let us hope that this will not be destroyed and preserve our values.

From Neha

July 6, 2009 5:59 PM
Sushmita, thanks for writing about this. You did create a bit of a panic though by saying that S377 was scrapped. It wasn't. Only consensual sexual acts between adults in private have been removed from the purview of this Section. So, the Section still applies to non-consensual sexual acts involving adults and acts involving minors (under 18). Sanjay Chaturvedi, hope that allays your fears. Anand, this ruling pertains to the Indian Penal Code so it applies to the whole country (there is jurisprudence supporting this), till such time that a court of equal stature (another High Court) or the Supreme Court rule otherwise.

From sushmita

July 6, 2009 7:50 PM
Neha: Thanks for the correction! It's only because 377, in our minds, has come to be associated with the criminalisation of alternate sexuality, so the repeal of that part of the section seemed to mean that 377 has been scrapped altogether. Of course, it hasn't been.

From pawandeep

July 6, 2009 7:53 PM
"Blatant display" is very common among the gay community. I don't know why they do this. Haven't seen lesbians doing this.

From Sarabjit

July 7, 2009 9:34 AM
Yeah Pawan, I have the same complaint too. Why dont we see the girls making out in the central park? Imagine what a feast it would be. Come on ladies!!

From ani

July 7, 2009 11:00 AM
sb, i missed ur blog for a while as i had a sudden transfer to some other place and my com had no net connection. sorry i cannot agree with all these unnatural things. I am with Baba Ramdevji. sometime ago there was a move to legalise prostitution. where we are heading for, i do not know. Being modern does not mean that we do all these unnatural things.

From ani

July 7, 2009 11:01 AM
sb, i missed ur blog for a while as i had a sudden transfer to some other place and my com had no net connection. sorry i cannot agree with all these unnatural things. I am with Baba Ramdevji. sometime ago there was a move to legalise prostitution. where we are heading for, i do not know. Being modern does not mean that we do all these unnatural things.

From ani

July 7, 2009 11:01 AM
sb, i missed ur blog for a while as i had a sudden transfer to some other place and my com had no net connection. sorry i cannot agree with all these unnatural things. I am with Baba Ramdevji. sometime ago there was a move to legalise prostitution. where we are heading for, i do not know. Being modern does not mean that we do all these unnatural things.

From ashish

July 7, 2009 12:15 PM
Using computers, electronic gadgets and the modern way of life were never a part of the indian culture. Abortion and other organ replacement surgery are difinitely not natural.

From M

July 7, 2009 2:16 PM
At last , some people in India have grown up . Lalu Prasad Yadav is still crying foul . To hell with him and his like . I am no fan of homosexuality but if someone is gay , let him or her be so . Live and let live . I personally think that sexual acts between people of the same sex are unnatural though there are some theories that state people are born that way ( with such inclinations ) . The point is however, that , if people want to be gay or are gay , as long as they are not hurting you or me , why should we put a restriction on them ? This is one thing I agree with Sushmita and her fans .

From M

July 7, 2009 2:17 PM
At last , some people in India have grown up . Lalu Prasad Yadav is still crying foul . To hell with him and his like . I am no fan of homosexuality but if someone is gay , let him or her be so . Live and let live . I personally think that sexual acts between people of the same sex are unnatural though there are some theories that state people are born that way ( with such inclinations ) . The point is however, that , if people want to be gay or are gay , as long as they are not hurting you or me , why should we put a restriction on them ? Finally , something I agree on ( with Sushmita and her fans )

From sushmita

July 7, 2009 4:03 PM
pawandeep/sarabjit: the blatant displays are mostly because they feel cornered most of the time. it's probably a show of strength in the face of social censure. i'd like to hear more about this though. any explanations/theories?

From sushmita

July 7, 2009 4:07 PM
ani: there is nothing modern about prostitution, it's supposed to be the oldest profession in the world. legalising it will make lives much simpler for sex workers, and also put a safety mechanism in place for illegal human trafficking.

From sushmita

July 7, 2009 4:10 PM
M: Thanks for agreeing with something! What is it like in Europe? Do you have an explanation to what Pawandeep/Sarabjit pointed out: the 'blatant' diplays of affection?

From decoy

July 7, 2009 5:04 PM
I think that homosexuality is not some thing new, and the recent research shows that it exists in animals as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals But what we see is what we want to see, so we try not to observe and publish these behaviours in animals. :)

From sri

July 7, 2009 5:35 PM
Hehe M :)...So u r with the motion this time :)

From Ghumakkad

July 7, 2009 5:57 PM
Ms. Bose, Jst an update. Baba Ramdev has decided to move the Supreme Court against Delhi High Court decision.

From M

July 7, 2009 6:00 PM
Yes of course I am with the motion this time Sri because it makes sense , Sushmita , Germany is supposed to be one of the most liberal countries when it comes to tolerating homosexuality . There are blatant expressions of homosexuality on the train & everywhere . Guys kissing guys , Women kissing women ( lip lock , tongue what not ). Can be nauseating to some people though . I do not understand why some guys are hypocritical though to point out they would not mind girls kissing girls but they do not want to see men kissing men . Some straight hypocritical men are the ones who say this . I mean I do not get a kick watching women kissing women or men kissing men because to me it seems unnatural but if they are not hurting us , what is our problem ? By the way , one more thing , legalizing prostitution is the way to go but just legalizing it won't put an end to illegal trafficking . I have been to Amsterdam and to just be in the red light district there is one hell of an experience. It is safe for tourists but reports say that many women have been trafficked to Amsterdam . The women behind the windows seem to be doing it out of their own will but some of them have been coerced into the world's oldest profession if some people are to be believed. Prostitution is legal in many countries in Europe but even in India and in the USA ( the states where it is not legal ) , it is kind of accepted.

From M

July 7, 2009 6:01 PM
Baba Ramdev's ass needs to be kicked and kicked hard

From sri

July 7, 2009 6:02 PM
@ Ani, Prostitution should be legalised, I am all for it ;) .... Forced prostitution is bad though... @ Everyone who has trouble understanding homosexual people... Think of it like left handedness... An alternate state (minority) that may be difficult to understand but not really under the person's control, and quite harmless actually

From sri

July 7, 2009 6:07 PM
@ M's latest comment ... Lol... I am sure Baba RD won't appreciate it though... :p

From M

July 7, 2009 6:20 PM
Who cares about what that asshole thinks . People like him are responsible for making India what it is . Old people with outdated attitudes and they are ruling the young people in India .

From sushmita

July 7, 2009 9:12 PM
Ghumakkad: is it also true that Baba RD has said "homosexuals are sick people who should be sent to hospital"? What a whackjob! M: you are right, he needs a kick where it hurts, and shd stick to yoga and his fake claims abt curing AIDS. Also, a lot of people find a lot of things nauseating. I would be revolted of someone placed a full roasted pig in the centre of the dinner table; and yet, some people swear it's the best thing in the world. I can just steer clear of the table and not offend the others' sensibilities (and appetites); likewise, our perceptions of gays :)

From pawandeep

July 7, 2009 9:40 PM
Sushmita, I am going to tell you a incident which is around 12-13 years back. I was waiting for a Auto near the Nizammudin Flyover ( this is a long flyover, connects Mayur Vihar and Sarai Kale Khan). Delhi police had made it mandatory for the pillion rider to wear helments, so as I was waiting, a scooter(two wheeler ) stops near me, and offers me lift. I accepted this offer without any hesitation and readily sat on the scooter.(Since no helmet was required for me, as I wore Turban ) As I sat , I could feel, that very small space was left for me to sit comfortably. It was LML scooter and had a single seat. Also this man had made such a arrangement that very small space was left for the pillion rider. After some time, I noticed that this man had slowed down the speed of the scooter and was infact pushing himself backwards, thus cornering me further..............Sushmita those days, we had not heared about the gays....but after so many years , I realised that he was a gay, and was trying to get some sort of pleasure out of me. Since that day I hate gays, and also so many times the word "unnatural" has been mentioned when some sort of reference is made about gays, so how can something which is "Unnatural" can get Legal approval.

From pawandeep

July 7, 2009 9:47 PM
Although I still believe..."Live and let others live"

From raman

July 7, 2009 11:21 PM
Do whatever you want but dont hurt anyone. if someone is ready to do sex with you then i dont think it is wrong because it is acceptance from both side wheather it is m2m or f2f. cheears

From sushmita

July 8, 2009 1:20 AM
Pawandeep: It must have been a horrible experience and I dont blame you for feeling the way u did at that time. But let me ask u something: suppose I had been there in ur place -- or any other woman -- and some man offered me a lift, and did the same thing to me. I'm sure I'd been just as revolted -- as much as u had been. This kind of behaviour cannot be condoned: and we cannot say that if a man had been doing to a WOMAN, it would have been better. One more thing. I know this is stereotyping, but there are certain 'come-on' signals apparently. If u are standing and looking for a lift, it can be read as u are waiting to get 'picked up'. It happened to a friend of mine. In his case, he was driving towards Naraina, and someone wanted a 'life' (from stories I have heard, asking for a lift or giving a lift is a 'sign'). My friend, in good faith, asked this chap to hop into his car. On the way, this person started asking my friend what he thought of man to man sex, and my friend realised he was in trouble. Luckily for him, he was able to get rid of this character. Believe me, that's the way homosexuals have to operate -- because it's such a cloak and dagger affair. In fact, as a woman, there are certain places which are considered off-limits. For instance, if you stand at the Moolchand crossing (where the road curves towards Nehru Place) at a certain time of the night, u are supposed to be a hooker. Many of my friends have horrendous tales to narrate.

From sushmita

July 8, 2009 1:23 AM
One amendment: I said "this is the way homosexuals operate because it's such a cloak and dagger affair". What I shd have said was "this is the way closet gays in our country -- and I'm sure elsewhere in the world -- operate".

From Anand

July 8, 2009 9:18 AM
@M: I am clearly FOR the decriminalization of homosexuality since it aligns us with the majority view around the modern world. But at the same time I can very well understand the views of people such as Baba Ramdev as well as other conservatives. They are concerned about morality and religious values and they oppose it on those grounds. I don't think they deserve a kick in the ass nor do they need to be dismissed offhand. They need to be included in the debate and listened to because this is ultimately a law that our Government (not our courts) needs to enact and as we all know - debate, participation and consensus are the cornerstone of a democracy.

Issues such as this are never easy and never black & white (never mind what the liberal leftists say) - there are broader issues to consider in terms of societal implications, precedents for other such behaviors. Some Muslim leaders have even gone so far as to suggest that homosexuality is an existential threat to humanity itself. Of course this is not true but it reflects the fears and sentiments of a large set of population and it cannot be case aside so easily.

From Anand

July 8, 2009 9:29 AM
@M & Sushmita: You guys seems to have an axe to grind with Baba Ramdev and I am NOT defending him (I am not a follower nor do I know exactly what he does except that I see him doing yoga on tv). I am just saying that the man has a right to an opinion and since he is an influential person we need to listen to his concerns as well and not just call him some cheap names and dismiss him offhand.

From sri

July 8, 2009 10:36 AM
@ Sushmita & Anand... I dont know about Baba RD, but I sure do feel that Lalu Prasad Yadav needs a sharp kick in the general groin area. I find that man to be extremely smug, highly corrupt, very very foolish, regressive and lacking even the basic semblance of a rational human thought process. Above all its his smug-ness and the comfort level with being the 'pig' he is that gets to me. I fervently hope that the Congress, the BJP or any other party for that matter never ever forms an alliance with him, whether it be at the centre or in Bihar. He should be relegated to political Siberia where his only jurisdiction would be to milk his 'Bhains'. P.S: I would like to sincerely apologise to pigs, milkmen and 'bhains' for associating them with Lalu Prasad.

From Sarabjit

July 8, 2009 11:03 AM
I think we've had enough of this topis. Let the gays live as they wish to, while we get on with out own lives. Sush, next sunday please write about a steamy date u have had, preferably with the graphic details. Lets get back to being the lechs we always were.

From Anand

July 8, 2009 11:08 AM
@Sri: Clearly our Lalu has gotten under your skin ;-) Of course the man is despicable and has helped push Bihar back into the dark ages so I dont think anyone can really defend him

From Anand

July 8, 2009 11:16 AM
@Sarabjit: You forgot to mention that we also need some pics to ogle at ;-)

From What is happening ?

July 8, 2009 12:40 PM
I am not able to post anything here

From What is happening?

July 8, 2009 12:42 PM
I can understand what happened to you but then again , it has also happened to me and believe me that most of these guys are not really homosexuals but bisexuals .Our country has many of them .

From What is happening ?

July 8, 2009 12:43 PM
They try to satisfy their sexual urges with either young boys or other men because accessibility to women for sex is not easy in the villages or so or even in small towns. I do not hate gays or bisexuals because of what happened to me but then again , I do not condone any behavior where someone tries to force something up on you .

From What is happening ?

July 8, 2009 12:45 PM
Some Muslims leaders talked about homosexuality being a threat to society right ? How hypocritical and I will tell you why . Homosexuality or rather bisexuality is rampant among Muslims ( Now , don’t get aggressive ) . It is nothing but the truth and I will tell you why .

From What is happening ?

July 8, 2009 12:45 PM
Homosexuality or rather bisexuality is rampant among Muslims ( Now , don’t get aggressive ) . It is nothing but the truth and I will tell you why . Not that there is something wrong with all Muslims . However, because of the restrictions in many Muslim societies , men get frustrated.

From What is happening ?

July 8, 2009 12:46 PM
I studied engineering in a Muslim dominated area and there were many men there who targeted young boys especially My roommates and I once caught one guy we knew trying to do it with some other young boy in our rented house .

From What is happening ?

July 8, 2009 12:48 PM
This is M but I am using a different name here to post and the reason why I am posting each post piece by piece is because for some reason,I am not allowed to post too much text at once like before . Looks like there is some problem with the site or so .

From What is happening ?

July 8, 2009 12:49 PM
Heard of Kozhikode. It is known to be a city with a lot of people with preferences for both sexes . Young Muslim men who prey on other men or young boys .

From What is happening ?

July 8, 2009 12:50 PM
So , Muslims leaders have to first resolve the problem that is rampant in their society and then talk about banning whatever. The victims in many cases are young boys because the perverts think that young boys are closest to women given that they have no hair on their legs et al . This is what one young Muslim man told me when we asked him why he did it with young boys.

From What is happening ?

July 8, 2009 12:50 PM
Don’t get me wrong .I am not saying that all Muslims are like that but it is a problem rampant among them . One more thing , I do not care a damn who this Baba asshole is . He may be a yoga great or whatever . People like him should not be listened to because they are regressive in nature anyways and people like him who claim to have found a cure for AIDS or so cannot be believed. Would you want to engage say Nehru in a talk about how much India should spend on defence ? We all know what happened because the guy trusted China . Would you want to engage Hitler in a talk about protecting minorities ? Get my point ?

From M

July 8, 2009 12:53 PM
I found out the problem . The site seems to have a problem with the use of the word b i s e x u a l or h o m o s e x u a l but no problem if you add ality to it

From M

July 8, 2009 12:54 PM
Maybe, it is something temporary . Test , Homosexual and bisexual . Maybe, it will work now

From sushmita

July 8, 2009 1:00 PM
Anand: you are right when you say, in a democracy, everyone has a right to be heard. But do you also think Baba RD and his ilk are going to be reasonable? (Should we now ask people who say women get raped because they are not covering themselves formulate a national dress code?) Their minds are already made up (and they probably have an agenda)... they think homosexuality is ‘unnatural’. I think centuries of suppression and repression have robbed us – in individual capacities – of the ability to think for ourselves. We’ve always been told us what to do, what to believe in. It’s time to get rid of that mindset, and we have to do that fast – else, we will miss the bus. Acc to these wise men, it’s going to encourage others to go haywire. Why will somebody who is not gay suddenly turn gay, just because it’s legal – and in the process do something he/she will not even enjoy? The whole premise of the argument is illogical and flawed: so why should we ask a bunch of fundamentalists -- who are speaking out of bias and prejudice -- take part in a matter that is concerned with some people’s LIVES? Btw, Baba RD has had his fair share of controversies; he’s no saint or man of God. He’s just human, like everyone else. Why can’t he let others be? And if religious leaders feel homosexuality is an existential problem, then a lot of ‘beliefs’ that goes beyond the purview of a said religion is also an existential problem. Yet, we co-exist.

From sushmita

July 8, 2009 1:02 PM
M: I;m impressed! Even I couldn't post for the longest time. So I changed homosexuals to gays -- after reading ur comment -- and voila, it worked! Thanks!

From Anand

July 8, 2009 1:17 PM
@Sushmita,M: I think my point is not understood and this is turning into a religion and personality bashing discussion which I don't want to propagate any further. So I will say nothing more on this subject now.

From ghumakkad

July 8, 2009 1:52 PM
Ms. Bose That's wot he's 'reported'in the media to have said and in absence of any denial from him we can presume that he DID SAY so. I suppose it just goes to show how ppl. can have extreme/diverse views on various isues w/out bothering abt. facts/truth- there are lots of opinions and analysis floating around without being tethered to any of the facts. I am rather free this mrning. so am inclined to go on….. Ms. Bose, May I point out that you, like many others, are wrong in thinking that S.377 has been scrapped. DELHI HC HAS NOT SCRAPPED/REPEALED S.377. It has merely ruled that homoxxxxxx relations between two consenting adults is not criminal. It makes me think how many of us have bothered to find out what does S. 377 of IPC actually say? well here it is.. Section 377. Unnatural offences:Whoever voluntarily has carnal intercourse against the order of nature with any man, woman or animal, shall be punished with 1[imprisonment for life], or with imprisonment of either description for term which may extend to ten years, and shall also be liable to fine. Explanation. -Penetration is sufficient to constitute the carnal intercourse necessary to the offence described in this section. So this much debated section covers not only homoxxxxxxxxx but the whole lot of other 'unnatural' sexual practices as well. So guys/gals who thot that this section should be repealed totally, need to update themselves. am just reminded of what I read somewhere . Argument against homoxxxxxxxxx: It can not be at all what nature intended. After all has any one heard of lions being homoxxxxxx? Counter argument: Well, no one may have heard of homoxxxxxx lions but then has any one heard of a Shakespeare/ Picasso/Beethoven among lions? Well I think thtz enuf blabbering for a mrng. So until next free mrnng….:-)

From rakesh

July 8, 2009 2:24 PM
Heer mili na isko ,yeh ranjhe utte mar gya'is a line from popular song maa da ladla from dostana.i wish to offer one point here that in a society like ours where its difficult in normal course of life for young ppl to mix up with opposite sex,its happening out of compulsion.anyway,i wish to offer what Osho has to say about the gays.it will be coming in my next post.many of you might not have heard about him,so just read it as an viewpoint on alternate sexuality.

From sushmita

July 8, 2009 2:26 PM
Ghumakkad: I know I said scrapped, but I clarified later -- saying that 377, to my mind, was always abt the criminalisation of alternate sexuality, so when that clause was repealed it felt like 377 was itself repealed. No offence :) Anand: of course, everyone has a right to an opinion -- and the media going crazy ensuring that RD gets coverage. So he shouldnt be complaining :)

From rakesh

July 8, 2009 2:42 PM
You say, "I am homo***ual. I feel terribly oppressed and stricken by the stigma of homo***uality. " There is no need to be "terribly oppressed." YOU MUST BE ACCEPTING PEOPLE'S CONDEMNATION. Deep down somewhere you are also against it; otherwise, why feel oppressed? If people are against, let them be against! YOU NEED NOT DECLARE TO EVERYBODY THAT YOU ARE A HOMO***UAL. You need not move with a flag that you are a homo***ual! You can remain a homo***ual. Of course, you cannot hide it because your sex style changes your body language. The way the homo***ual walks is totally different from the hetero***ual; the way he talks is totally different. And he looks so gay, so happy! So you will have to remain a little less happy, that's all. Don't look so happy, and walk a little more consciously, that's all. DON'T FEEL OPPRESSED AND DON'T FEEL STRICKEN BY THE STIGMA OF HOMO***UALITY. That is all nonsense! And you say, "It seems false to me to come here to find a way to come closer to myself and at the same time not to have the courage to show myself the way I am." What courage are you talking about? Here there is no question of courage. IF YOU ARE HOMO***UAL YOU ARE HOMO***UAL! Here it does not need courage to declare it. Here you can write on your shirt, "I am homo***ual." Nobody will take any notice of it. People will say, "So what?" This is a totally different world. Here we accept all kinds of people: sane, insane, crazy -- we have no objection. UNLESS YOU START HARMING OTHERS WE HAVE NO OBJECTION. And homosexuality is a harmless game, absolutely harmless. But you think that this is courageous that you are declaring that you are a homo***ual. Here it is not; anywhere else it will be. And I will not suggest that you declare it anywhere else; there is no need. Why brag about it? ACCEPT IT SILENTLY, RELAX INTO IT. But you wanted to say it because it is boiling within you. DON'T BE WORRIED WHAT OTHERS SAY. Just look within yourself, what you are saying to your own homo***uality. You are not at ease with it. The society has corrupted you, contaminated you. The society has given you ideals. It has created a certain conscience in you and that conscience is pricking, continuously feeling hurt. Now you say, "Then I want to resign and return home so that I don't have to think about it any longer." Just by going back home you will not be getting rid of it. Neither you will get rid of homo***uality nor will you get rid of the stigma or the feeling of being oppressed. You will have to drop your conscience that has been created by the society in you. You will have to understand yourself and CLEAN YOURSELF OF ALL IDEAS IMPOSED BY OTHERS. Only then will you be able to relax. You ask me, "What can I do?" Hein, don't make a problem out of it. NOTHING HAS TO BE DONE ABOUT IT. I don't tackle individual problems. My whole approach is that there are millions of diseases, but there is only one cure, and that cure is meditation. YOU MEDITATE -- HOMO***UAL, HETERO***UAL, BI***UAL.... YOU MEDITATE. You become more still and more silent. You create inner emptiness. You become more transparent, and then things will start changing. You will be able to see what you are doing to yourself. If it is right you will go on doing it with more joy, with more totality, with more intensity, with more passion. If it is wrong it will simply drop, just like dead leaves falling from a tree. SO I CANNOT SUGGEST ANY SPECIFIC METHOD because to me all the problems are arising because we have become minds and we have forgotten that deep down there is a space within us which can be called no-mind. Entering that space, no-mind, will give you perspective, vision, clarity. MEDITATE. Sit silently watching your thoughts -- homo***ual, hetero***ual, whatsoever they are, it doesn't matter. You watch, you become the witness. Slowly slowly, a distance will be created between you and your thoughts. And one day suddenly, the realization that you are not your mind. And that day a revolution has happened within you. After that day you will never be the same again, a transcendence has happened. AFTER THAT, WHATSOEVER YOU DO IS RIGHT; YOU CAN'T DO WRONG THEN. And before that, whatsoever you do is wrong. So when I say I have nothing against homo***uality I am not supporting it, remember. I am not saying, "Be homo***ual." I don't have anything against hetero***uality either, but I am not supporting hetero***uality. I am not supporting anything. These are all mind games -- and you have to go beyond all the games. OSHO The Dhammapada: The Way of the Buddha Vol 10, Ch #12: A new man with a new vision

From sri

July 8, 2009 2:47 PM
Anand... u r right... Lalu has gotten under my skin and the mere sight of him makes me gnash my teeth...

From sri

July 8, 2009 2:56 PM
To Mr.Osho (wherever he is)... Relaxing into homosexuality is fine... But in a world where homosexuality is illegal... u cannot afford to be too relaxed, too passive... coz if u are and are caught with your pants down... you will be put in JAIL !! So activism and public awareness is necessary to make it legal; once that is achieved, you need not wear your homosexuality on your sleeve... damn care the world

From bouncy

July 8, 2009 2:57 PM
though i was looking forward to reading intersting thoughts,perhaps ppl are holding back,being sushmita's fans.guys,if u really wish to read something authentic about the four letter word(actually a three lettered one),do read vijay jung thapa in hindustantimes blogs,and provide some nice views.

From ashish

July 8, 2009 2:59 PM
If str8 men and women are like protons and neutrons gays, lesbians are like neutrons, positrons, gamma rays etc. I hope now people understand the role of sexual variants in the society.

From ashish

July 8, 2009 3:00 PM
err If str8 men and women are like protons and electrons

From rakesh

July 8, 2009 3:02 PM
sri,i did'nt get you.u mean by wearing it on our sleeves,we can help it becoming legal?I dont remember anyone getting prosecuted for being gay,i mean caught with pants down.

From sri

July 8, 2009 3:17 PM
Rakesh... I mean Osho's words are not practical... they are good to help a gay man/woman deal with people's condemnation, by simply relaxing and letting go... But what about the law? The law wont simply condemn you, they would INCARCERATE you... I dont know how things are going to change now, but earlier you could be tried in a court of law for practising unnatural relations or whatever.... Yeah... so increasing awareness and moving the government to recognise and legalise alternate sexuality is imperative... By 'wearing it on your sleeve' I dont mean bouncing about screaming that you are gay!!! :p

From M

July 8, 2009 4:32 PM
I agree with Sri , Rakesh , you may be right that maybe no one was prosecuted for being gay but people were harassed . People can be harassed by corrupt police officials if they are gay for example . It is high time that people are safe from being put behind bars because of their sexual orientation . Don't get me wrong . I am no fan of homosexuality and I do think it is unnatural but if people want to be gay or are gay , why do we have to have a problem ?

From M

July 8, 2009 4:33 PM
Sushmita , On a lighter note , thanks for your compliments but remember I told you that I was not lying about anything including my intelligence .

From M

July 8, 2009 5:14 PM
I agree with Sushmita too . Everyone has a right to be heard ( technically ) but for instance , do you want to hear the views of religious fundamentalists and people like Baba ? They are not going to be reasonable . They never will be . We know what they are going to say . So , what is the point in deliberating with such people ? Also , I hate it when people say that the west is corrupting India . We are a nation of corrupt people anyways . Also , why would someone who is not gay turn gay anyways ?

From pawandeep

July 8, 2009 9:54 PM
Talking about BRD, I would like to say, that initially I too thought that he is doing a very noble work, by educating us about Yoga. But I tell you, many of things which he claims, does not have any scientific proofs. And though on TV he most of the time talk about the pranayams, but if you happen to visit any of his Centres, you will notice that main emphasis in these centres is just selling the ayurvedic medicines. And they sell these medicines in packets ( each packet contains 4-5 strips )only, and if you ask for a strip , they refuse, and all these medicines are not returnable. So, as was in my case, if these medicines donot suit , all the money spend on these goes waste.

From sri

July 8, 2009 10:28 PM
Pawandeep... thanks for sharing your experience man. I for one have always been confused about the legitimacy of Baba Ramdev's activities... Looking at the number of followers he has and the media hype he generates I was always tempted to believe that he might actually be good... Now i'll be more wary

From angad singh

July 8, 2009 10:41 PM
nice post, had a great time reading about the comments too :) reminded me of something humorous I'd read some time ago :-P lemme share it with you guys:- http://www.blameitonthevoices.com/2009/04/10-reasons-why-gay-marriage-is-wrong.html

From Dr.Spook

July 9, 2009 12:25 PM
Friends: The fight has just started: see article: http://news.rediff.com/report/2009/jul/09/sc-notice-to-centre-on-legalising-gay-sex.htm Suits are being filed in the Supreme Court to quash the High Court ruling. Whoever wins or loses the lawyers will make their money

From sushmita

July 9, 2009 1:28 PM
Dr Spook: is this being filed at the behest of Baba RD?

From Dr.Spook

July 9, 2009 3:25 PM
Sushmita: no. baba rd suit has been filed separately yesterday.

From rampyari

July 9, 2009 6:09 PM
a dumb question if you may. does art 377 apply only to gay men? if so, isn't there a presumptive gender bias in the law and lack of imagination if you may....

From Dr.Spook

July 10, 2009 9:16 AM
sushmita: something's bothering me. i put together some thoughts from u in previous posts such as: "being single in the city", "hatred towards average indian men", "why can't men be more like women", "i have no time for romantic escapades", "girls night out with bff maria", "going butch" and finally ur uncontained euphoria over the decriminalization of 377. adding all this up makes me wonder - is there something u need to tell us. if so then why dont u just COME OUT and say so - the good doctor will not judge:-))

From rakesh

July 10, 2009 9:58 AM
and btw,its perfect season for such pronouncement after the judgement.lol.

From rakesh

July 10, 2009 10:01 AM
rampyari,in this matter womenfolk are at much advantage.because the major objection is on penetration part in this battle(criminalisation).and between the ladies no such thing.am i sounding dirty??did'nt know how to put nice words,so excuse me.

From rk

July 10, 2009 2:16 PM
So, now I hope there wont be any single in the city..This is not for the first time we are playing with nature and natural laws and history stands as a mute spectator of devastation that these anti natural things brings so be it...same sex marriage to be legalized in a country of traditional moral values and cultures.Nonsense..in no way it is acceptable to a civilised society.Always bear in mind that we are not americans ..we are what we are and we should not follow the western culture blindly.It is not a matter of how advanced the country and the people are by legalising such things..Something should be behind the curtains always or let the evolution takes place with 360 degree orientation to start with men and women with no brains, no clothes, no courts ..almost nothing..to start with such things where there be no concept of father and mother..nothing..so Sush sorry!!! no cheers from my side for this unnatural topic.I strongly condemn and will condemn such issues.

From Abhi

July 10, 2009 2:25 PM
It has raised hopes of many, but beat this couple if u can....HEIGHT http://www.mid-day.com/news/2009/jul/100709-Swathi-Snehaprabha-transsexuals-male-to-female-Bangalore-news.htm

From vishal

July 10, 2009 3:36 PM
Well Sushmita I am totally agreed to your views, as being a homosexual is not a crime. Although majority of the persons I have approached regarding this concern seems me to be not in favour of this but I believe we are not suppeose to put some one in prison just because he wants to spend his life with a person of same sex. As for the Indian culture or our religion so you see Hinduism tol us to worship nature as we worship fire, we woeship soil,water, air everthing. so why don.t they admit that being a homosexual is as natural as we are straight. Then we should have accepted this thing wide minded. Anyways I am eager to see my nation's response on section 377.

From Vikas

July 10, 2009 6:15 PM
Just as gays have a right to choice so does Baba RDX. Hear him out and let him file his appeals. Do not prejudge him. I am not sure how many of you have read the Delhi HC judgment. It builds a great case which RDX will not be able to either understand or counter. Having said that he too needs his 15 hours of fame. Let him have it. In any case he is working on his new CD that provides a cure for homosexuality by breathing in and out with one nostril closed at a time. I feel completely discriminated. I can not kiss a girl (ok, even my wife) in public but gays are free to do anything because... well, they are gays. Not done. They should stop the public displays.

From sushmita

July 11, 2009 4:23 PM
Dr Spook: sorry, dude, i like men too much -- at times, even AIM!

From sushmita

July 11, 2009 4:30 PM
RK: I realise it may be difficult for some of us to accept this sudden outing from the closet. but seriously, the decriminalisation will actually reduce the sleaze that has come to be associated with homosexuality. even if we continue to languish in our age-old mindsets -- the post kamasutra one that is -- it will not stop the gay community from being, right? so why cant we just cut the intrigue and be normal about it? and let's not get into this "we are not like americans". That's a sweeping statement. how do we know what americans are like? do we even know what Indians are like? do u know 10 per cent of your fellow citizens are gay? what does that make them? americans?

From Lucky

July 12, 2009 12:58 AM
well every one has right to live there own life the way they want law can't change what you are .N i think should't punish you for what you are

From Dr.Spook

July 13, 2009 8:52 AM
Sushmita: good. glad to hear that u like men. wish it would come out in ur writing. it would be nice to hear some good things about men for a change instead of the typical vitriolic posts we have seen

From RK

July 13, 2009 10:15 AM
Sush: Yah..I am wrong when I wrote " we are not like Americans" and I am concerned with the feeling of guys..I hope they live a normal life but legalising is bad.Sex is OK with consent but with whom????????Its not about gay or lesbians having fulfilling their sex desire only..if this is natural then what is un natural..how about sex with animals ? what is the definition of rape then ? good statistical info..10% of my fellow citizens are gays and yah some people definitely want to see that figure touching 100%.I hope some day God will allow birth from mans with M2M and F2F??no controversies.....thank God.

From RightAgain

July 13, 2009 12:11 PM
Sushmitaji: We cant just "cut the intrigue and be normal about it" because gay sex is not normal. It is an abnormal and unnatural behavior and should not be approved by society. If we accept today that such behaviour is normal we are opening the door in the future to accept all other unnatural behaviour also as normal: such as polygamy and bestiality. We conservatives will never accept this behaviour and we will never be normal about it. We will not bow down to you left wing extremist liberals. We will fight this descent into anarchy with all our might and push back these evil tendencies to the darkness where they belong.

From M

July 13, 2009 1:33 PM
ha ha ha RK and Right again . Let me give you some background . I am a practising Christian . According to the Bible , unnatural sex is bad but yet I think we have no right to put any gay in prison because of his or her acts of consensual sex. If you guys think that by letting gays be gays , we will open doors for more unnatural acts, then you are wrong . Till the 1960s, interracial marriages were banned in the USA? Do you know that ? Now, what happened after that stupid law was repealed. In Germany , people have been able to be gay with no questions of being imprisoned. I do not see German society going to to the dogs. Polygamy my friends are already allowed for Muslims in almost all countries including our own .

From M

July 13, 2009 1:33 PM
My opinion ? I do think that being gay is unnatural but as long as they do not hurt you or me with their acts and the act is consensual , what is your problem ? Also bestiality is not to be allowed because the animal is mute and may not be consenting . Do not compare salt with sugar . They are totally different from each other . It is not about being like the West.It is about knowing what is acceptable and what is not . I have no right to tell you what to do as long as it does not hurt other people or me . Period . Laws are in place to protect people from acts that might hurt any of them and not from people whose acts will have no effect on them .

From M

July 13, 2009 1:34 PM
You say we conservatives are not going to accept this behaviour . What the hell are you going to do about ? Kill all gays ? Reminds me of *** . They were extreme right conservatives . I had rather be an extreme left liberal than an intolerant stupid conservative who thinks he or she has the right to tell someone how he or she has to live .

From M

July 13, 2009 1:40 PM
By the way the N A Z I thing was what I meant . What is wrong with the moderators of this site ? Why would you ban a word N A Z I . Are you guys conservative too ?

From M

July 13, 2009 1:42 PM
Polygamy is * correction

From RightAgain

July 13, 2009 1:54 PM
M: You are obviously a confused & bewildered individual. We are not. There is right and there is wrong and there is no confusion here. You would know this if had read your own bible properly or if you listened to your own pope. No matter. We do not care about USA or Germany or anywhere. We care about Hindustan and we will fight in our supreme court. If that fails we will take this to our MLAs MPs and change the constitution. we have the votes. Hindus Muslims and Christians will come together on this. Our politicians will give this to us because it will bring votes and will not not cost them anything. Enjoy your brief victory for now. Know that we will prevail.

From M

July 13, 2009 2:00 PM
Right again , I do not report to the Pope. I am not even a Catholic . The fact that you are assuming that I am confused and bewildered just because I do not agree with your opinion speaks volumes about your lot . What if all your efforts fail ( the whole taking it to the MLAs et al ) ? Will you then take law into your own hands ? Try your best and I do not know who will prevail because this is no competition for me . Last but not the least, I seriously do not understand what is wrong with your self proclaimed righteous men ? Are some of you venting the frustration of your dull and boring ( sometimes failed )lives on others ? I am not assuming that you have a such a life . Or does your lot think that only your opinion counts ?

From M

July 13, 2009 2:01 PM
with you self proclaimed * correction *

From RightAgain

July 13, 2009 2:15 PM
M: Hindustan is a democracy and the majority opinion counts. Come here and talk to people on the road or in homes or in churches or temples or gurudwaras about this issue. Talk to god fearing people in the villages. Then you will understand the difference between you urban intellectuals with your fancy degrees and opinions and the rest of us. We will listen to our elders and our priests and we will not allow this abomination in our land.

From M

July 13, 2009 4:18 PM
That is why I asked you how you would counter this issue in case gays were allowed to be gays . If it was left to the opinion of the masses , the Delhi high court would not have passed such a judgment . The opinion of the majority counts in India eh . Oh , that is why we have one of the worst living standards in the world ( overall ) Come on , Get real .

From sushmita

July 13, 2009 7:45 PM
RightAgain: You said it, India is a democracy. In a democracy, even the minorities have to be protected. That's why gay rights are so important. If prejudices prevail, we have no right to proudly state: "We are a democracy." Let's just say we are right-wing authoritarian.

From RightAgain

July 14, 2009 8:20 AM
M, Sushmita: There is no "gay right" to protect; it is a deviant behaviour which we do not want to legitimize. We also do not want to legitimize bestiality or other such deviant behaviours just because some people are born with such desires and cant help themselves. Govt cannot pass laws that go against all the major religions of our country and which is opposed by an overwhelming majority of the population just to appease some left wing liberal extremists. What the Delhi High Court did was the worst form of judicial activism where they ignored the will of the people and interpreted our constitution the way they wanted. We do not accept this and we are using every legal & political means to fight this.

From RK

July 14, 2009 9:06 AM
@RightAgain,M,Sush:Lets agree to disagree.Different people different opinion...the debate will still remain.I think people should be free to decide what they want to do.We should not have any law, any constitution, judicial system, nothing..let the people decide what is right and dont tell me about the wrong cos what I say wrong may be right for somebody else..lets make everyone free to live their own life.Sorry..we can not ..perhaps we could have done it if we would have directly come from nothing without spending 9 months in the womb of our mothers.I would just like to tell you there is a natural process and we should not try to disturb it.I know we are the most brainy creature in the world, highly educated and what not....still then the nature has its own rules and ironically we can not change that.

From Sri

July 14, 2009 12:21 PM
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=5015 Most of the world is moving on and realising a persons sexuality shouldn't define or discrimate against them. That is true for religious countries like Brazil, Poland (Catholic), Israel and not-so-religious like China. It's time Indians accept it, instead of constantly harping on our "culture" and listening to stodgy dinsoaurs generally known as religious leaders!

From M

July 14, 2009 12:51 PM
Right again , Did you even read what I typed before ? Did I not tell you why bestiality could not be legalized . There was something missing . Consent . In gay sex, consent is not missing . So , you or your holier than thou brigade has no right to tell anyone what he or she is supposed to do as long as it does not prick your posteriors . Religions ? Religion is the main cause of trouble in this world . Mind you . I am religious too but keep religion out of this . You keep on saying "we do not accept this" . What are you going to do about all of this in case the judgment still holds? You did not answer that till now .

From M

July 14, 2009 12:55 PM
Sri , I echo you on this . I mean many religious leaders are nothing but opportunists and in short assholes. They use religion as a tool to manipulate people and sadly , there are so many idiots who drop everything and follow them . By the way , I wonder what is so great about our culture . If our culture was so great, we would not still be a third world country where it still takes 12 hours to cover a distance of 400kms and yet we keep comparing ourselves with China . Oh by the way , before anyone gets emotional , I am no India basher ( just read my posts ) but I do accept the truth

From M

July 14, 2009 12:56 PM
Right again , This is a forum which is open to debate . Sometimes , debates are not about proving who is right or wrong . It is about driving home your point whether the other side believes it or not . You keep saying that let the people decide yet you imply that gay sex is against nature . You seem to be one of those who think legalizing gay sex is wrong . Well , as long as they do not hurt you , just what is your problem ?

From RightAgain

July 14, 2009 1:36 PM
M: Your arguments hold no water. This is not about mutual consent - it is about VALUES. It is about right and wrong. You may not have noticed but we do a lot of things to animals without bothering with their consent - eat them, wear their skin, domesticate them, blah, blah. If we go down the road that you and your liberal friends are touting as the modern way then there is no doubt that you will also endorse bestiality one day because some minority group of people will claim that they are born that way. Please dont ask me now why bestiality is bad if it doesnt hurt me!

As a citizen i am interested in a lot of things which do not hurt me directly but which affect the society that I live in. Just 1 example: I dont inject cocaine and it does not hurt me directly if others inject cocaine - but yet I will object to cocaine being legitimize

I already told you what we are doing about it: we are challenging the high court judgement in the supreme court and if that fails then we will lobby our MPs and MLAs to change the law or even the constitution. Read my posts carefully and dont ask the same questions again. Also stop using foul language in a public forum : it shows poor communication ability.

From M

July 14, 2009 2:07 PM
Right again , First , I never cussed at you . You imply that I have poor communication ability ? ha ha . You read my posts didn’t you ? Any sane person would think twice before he came up with that just because he got emotional . Why are you using the same words I used ? Read my posts ? ha ha . I know what you said . I was asking you what would you do in case the thing with the MPs and the MLAs did not work . You are the one who has to read my questions properly . Killing an animal for food is not considered unnatural . However bestiality is considered unnatural and also there is no consent . In gay sex, it may be considered unnatural ( I already told you that I thought it was unnatural too ) but there is consent . How do you know what we will endorse in the future ? Are you some kind of a soothsayer ? Well , you have a bad example with regards to cocaine . Cocaine does hurt people because many addicts create problems in the society because they are intoxicated and some even steal for money so that they can buy more dope Man , your reasoning is just based on some stupid morals that you have created.

From saiyam chowdhry

July 20, 2009 12:52 PM
@LUNATIC WOMEN(SUSH or watever)......as we are getting more and more "MODERN N PROGRESSIVE" we are inching towards are nadir.Revoking section 377 (in arvind adiga's words) HA what a f****** JOKE.Can to gays reproduce?HYPOTHETICALLY if all men in this world become gays humanity will come to a grinding halt (wdnt it?) .THEN tell me miss is it not a menace? Does it not have a potential to jeopardize human existence? should it not be spoken in the same breath as GLOBAL WARMING!!! Speaking more "rationally" people look at it as a subvertive agent because it is derogatory to our social structure.we need not import this cultural indebtedness from the west!! Delhi high court may revoke section 377 (courtesy UTOPIAN jurisprudence) but it cant shove its utopianism on people. i hope sanity prevails and the damage is controlled. ONE UP!!!

From M

July 21, 2009 5:22 PM
Wonder where you are coming from . Just because it is not against the law to be gay , does not mean that everyone would become gay . What an idiotic stance ! Just because it is not against the law to wear mini skirts in Bangalore , does everyone go about wearing mini skirts in Bangalore ? Go and get a good nights sleep .

From K Mathur

July 29, 2009 9:47 AM
I agree w Sushmita that love is a private matter between two consenting adults. I wonder though if everyone who is supporting them now would stand by them if they were attacked physically by the ones who do not think it is “natural”. What, I wonder, would we do to ensure that the criminal justice system comes down hard on these gay and lesbian ‘bashers’.

From kshitij jain

August 29, 2009 12:33 AM
The decision on 377 is shockingly retarded..Homosexuality is a mental disease and we cant digest every stupidity and weirdness in the name of championing human rights and civil liberties.It is sick and yuck it sucks.......They need a mental asylum where these homosexual can be treated nothing more..they are the rotten part of system..they need to be cut off

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